Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

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Gothmer
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Gothmer » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:53 pm

Through some combined efforts, interrogations, and critical thinking, a write up on some issues with plotboards has been developed! I've added a quick summary at the end of the two main points here. Please read and give your thoughts and feedback.


Having a point-based system necessarily involves deciding what is worth the points. Some forum-based RPGs assign values to number of words; others, to number of posts or threads, with more or less influence of the content. Our current system places considerable value on quality versus quantity, which in my opinion is neat. However, what exactly does ‘quality’ consist of? I am a firm believer in transparency in grading. I made a little list of what accomplishments could likely be rewarded (many which already are). Some, I think, are currently misunderstood and might be improved.

1.Character development – The majority of stories (not short) that one will encounter involve the character changing in some way. It may be a villain growing into an anti-hero, or a hero turning to the dark side; it may be stuff like learning techniques or overcoming fear of a new food etc. A character changing in some way often keeps the story interesting. It’s not vital, however, as there are genres that can function virtually without any character development (think detective fiction). However, in this case, either the storytelling (see below) is good enough to make up for it, or the writer creates an illusion of change by gradually revealing facets of a complex character (the character doesn’t develop, but the reader’s perception of it does). I think character development is an element that could be especially useful in open-ended systems such as roleplaying.

2.Challenges – It is said that a story consists of a character, its environment, and challenges. Having a character face something that is challenging to them can keep us on the edge of our seats. This ties in to character development, but given that our site is based on a shonen anime, I’m focusing particularly on physical threats here. But what we have to understand is that ‘challenge’ is relative. A single bandit may endanger a D-rank character more than an entire samurai army threatens an S-rank. I do not think that we should grade by ‘absolute’, but rather by ‘relative’ danger’, as it is the ‘relative’ danger that gives us readers our kicks. Think about it: having Naruto and Sasuke struggle to face Haku in the first episodes was much more entertaining than if they had Bannin powers and could 1HKO the guy.

3.Impact on the world – Reading the previous paragraph, some may be disappointed that I make no distinction between weak characters facing equally weak opponents, and legendary characters facing legendary opponents. Surely having extra flashy attacks should get more points, right? Well…no, in my opinion. But I think that there is something important that writers may pull off more easily as their characters grow stronger, and this is impact on the world. I think people should be rewarded for trying to change the world that their characters live in, as long as it makes sense (no 1-hit destruction of Konoha, for example…). This could include fighting strong opponents, but it could equally involve things like diplomacy or reclaiming a fragment of the desert as farmland via ninja magic.

4.Storytelling – While enjoyment of writing is subjective, a story can be approximately graded in terms of grammar, flow of writing, originality, connections to other threads etc.

I feel that our current system of ‘*insert rank here* plotboards’ is a compromise between logic and the (worse) previous system of missions. One reason it is not fully logical is because it limits the progression of low-level characters. While this may have a superficial appeal to some (‘it feels illogical for weaklings to get strong that fast’), it can also do considerable damage. If two people write just as much and just as good, with the same level of ‘relative’ danger and impact on the world, but one of them is a D-rank and the other is an S-rank, the D-rank person may end up with fewer points (because of the stat point reward cap). This is essentially telling that person: ‘your writing is worth less because your character is weaker’ or ‘your writing is worth less because there was not enough stabbing and explosions in your plotboard’. Yes, they might end up with the same points by splitting the plotboard – but again, this implies that their character/PB is worth less because they have to go through additional hoops to acquire the same reward for the same work. Discouraging people from writing well is something that a roleplaying site should never do. And if you think that weaklings getting stronger fast is unnatural – first of all, they’d have to work for it. Same amount of work for the same reward. Secondly, isn’t it more unnatural to accelerate ease of gaining stats as one gets more power? To keep people entertained, many games do it the other way round.

As such, I think we should keep the ‘rank of’ plotboards only for guidance, not grading, and do away with the stat limits, or at the very least, set a uniform stat cap limit among all ranks. Instead, we should ask ourselves these questions: Is this writing good? Does this character show depth and/or evolution? Does it change the world around it in the slightest?
Additional thoughts on relative difficulty and plotboard length estimations
As previously mentioned, our current system is a hybrid that evolved from a previous (worse) system of ‘missions’. Because of this, it has grandfathered a few assumptions.

One of them is that plot (absolute) difficulty should be correlated with plot length. Well, simple missions should take less than more complex ones, right?

It’s not quite that straightforward.

Facing D-rank enemies is about as dangerous for a D-rank character as facing A-rank enemies would be for an A-rank. This is the important part: the relative difficulty. Over a low enough number of threads, the grading makes no distinction between them. Perhaps, for example, three threads of facing A-rank enemies would not be enough for an A-rank character to get an A-rank PB – but they’d still get their stat points. Alternatively, they could add more threads and get an A-rank PB.

The D-rank character doesn’t have the option to ‘add more threads’ to their story. Well, they do, but it’s meaningless when the cap is 15 points for a D-rank PB, and 20 points for a C-rank. Instead, they’re forced to split plotboards, or be penalized for keeping them together. This, I believe, comes from an ingrained assumption that low-level characters lack the capacity to be involved in complex plotboards. That they are, by virtue of being weak, boring. And it’s wrong.

Think of your favorite stories and how you cherished your character facing their initial challenges, even if later they’d grow so strong that they could solve it with their eyes closed. It’s the relative difficulty which matters. Assuming that weak characters cannot make complex, interesting stories, is a bias. It has no base in fiction/literature. And having illogical biases ingrained in a RP forum’s mechanics system is something that should not be done.

Plotboards are not missions. It does not matter whether the missions usually given to Genin might be ‘rescue this cat for an overpriced reward’ sort of stuff. What matters is that the character itself has a goal, how challenging it is for them, and how much they are willing to fight for it.
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(Random example for a D-rank clan member: ‘plotboard starts by investigating why my character’s older brother is a moody teenager. It turns out that he has a secret base underground just outside the village where he experiments on people. Upon investigating, my character is imprisoned, is nearly experimented on by an assistant, and escapes his cell in a way that involved cleverness/ persistence/ despair. It turns out that big bro actually has the village’s support (the assistant just happened to be crazy), but the clan doesn’t know. What to do next.’ )
The last thing we should do is penalize people for wanting to write good stories.


Another issue relating to ‘we shouldn’t penalize people for wanting to write good stories’. If we look at the suggested topics number, and then the stat max, we see that it encourages people not to write their best. A D-rank plotboard is listed as ‘typically 1 to 3 topics in length’, but if one wrote three threads, and they were all amazing, then they’d be losing out quite a lot (3 * 7 = 21; D-rank stat cap: 15). That’s…about a third of their work. Yes, they’d still receive the character points, but those feel almost ‘free’ compared to the more elusive/potentially more useful SP. And it’s not only low-ranked PBs that suffer from this – indeed, it gets worse at higher PB ranks. The worst offenders are A and B ranks. If one wrote the maximum suggested of threads and got the maximum of points, they’d be losing out on half. One doesn’t even have to be perfect – an average of four is enough to lose out with the maximum suggested topic number. At this point it might be easier to split the PB, but one shouldn’t have to go through additional hoops just because they happen to write a lot, and write it well. I do believe that making it a bit more challenging to get stronger as one’s character grows more powerful might make for an entertaining progression; however, what we should not do is tell people ‘You wrote so much and honestly, it’s brilliant! Here’s the same number of points as you would’ve gotten if you put in half the effort.’




Summary!
I believe there are two main points here that, depending on what Director comes back with from mods, may or may not be relevant.

First
people should be rewarded for their writing. This speaks to the stat caps. As it stands, the cap only serves to affect those who write above average, or, in the case of B and A rank plot boards, even those who write average. This, I believe, is the main issue I wanted to address here. It should not be, ‘You wrote so much and honestly, it’s brilliant! Here’s the same number of points as you would’ve gotten if you put in half the effort.’

There was talk in the C-box about this unstated potential of simply moving the plotboard up but, I do not believe this would entirely void this problem. People should simply be rewarded for what they write.

Second
(this may be a point that rose from misunderstandings) plotboards should be graded on the complexity and a relative danger more so than their absolute danger. That is to say that a D-rank versing a D-rank is similar to an A-rank versing an A-rank. Now, I have been told in C-box that the ranking is actually based on length of the PB and complexity, but the rules on PBs seem to contradict this.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Kabu » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:02 pm

Two things before I really go indepth on this: A. I think that you misunderstand plotboards and B. You really should put in a TL;DR as your meaning could be lost with so much text.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by FluffyGinja » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:05 pm

A summary would be nice, simply because there are a variety of points being made and having a concise paragraph or two would make your points far easier to get across.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Nick » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:21 pm

I skimmed because only tools don't make TLDRs for six page long essays.

You can't place a value on quality on what is an entirely subjective thing, IE the art of writing. It's all a matter of personal opinion, and even if we say something like "world impact" is a factor, one person might say that something has a world impact rating of 2 points, and another might say 4. Until google comes out with some crazy artsy fartsy robot that can compare us all to Shakespeare and Poe, you're stuck dealing with peoples personal opinions, and ultimately, probably a bit of favoritism.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Sia » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:48 pm

I'm not saying I completely agree with his sentiments but holy shit guys read the whole fucking thing instead of being little bitches. TL;DRs are for fuckwads.
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If you want to speed up the process you can just talk to one of the other staff members about it.
Most of them have been around longer than Director and can actually read.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Nick » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:30 pm

You can't tell me what to do you're not my real mom.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Gothmer » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:35 pm

I added a summary at the end, though there is much more contained within the entirety. Some may or may not be based on faulty information, I am not sure. If it is, please explain that.


Guns - Not meant to be a tool, and the part on grading guidelines was not meant to state that is should be entirely objective, as that would be impossible. There should undoubtedly be an objective component to it. At the very least, having some guidelines set out for what matters for grading is never a bad thing.

Sia - Thanks for that. I think there are a lot of valid points here that are worth discussing and do not relay well to a TL;DR.

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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by FluffyGinja » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:37 pm

It is fine to have a summary and still state that the points are better explained, it makes it easier and encourages people to read.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by FluffyGinja » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:43 pm

Also, there are guidelines. In the rules for grading things. General guidelines are actually strict on what it is you get for grading and are very objective if you follow them.
Quote:
0 Points: No character development whatsoever, very clear that little or no effort was put forth, or incomplete.
1 Point: No character development; likely unfinished.
2 Points: Minimal to no character development. Lacking in flow. Possibly unfinished.
3 Points: Decent topic, with interesting points, lack character development, length, or quality in a way that largely detracts from it's purpose.
4 Points:Average topic, may have character development. Involves reader and draws them into the story though still has room for improvement.
5 Points: Well written topic with interesting story that pulls reader in, some room for improvement, typically has decent character development and growth.
6 Points: Excellent topic that create dynamic emotions in the characters, reveals growth or development, or serves a larger purpose in the characters meaning. Some room from improvement, but may be perfect as is.
7 Points: Amazing character development. Reader is invested in the story and has nothing to complain about
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Ace Trainer » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:45 pm

Uhh, I'm on my phone so I'm not going to respond to everything here.

I don't grade by any of this. If you want me to be entirely honest. If I read the entire thread, I grade almost entirely based on how much I enjoyed the topic. Otherwise, I usually skim, and I'll read one full post from each participant....and then my grading is relatively the same method, just kind of summarized

The stat caps are because we don't want people doing a bunch of BS cat-walking missions to get 325 stats.

No one will ever write a perfect 7 series of topics so I d x about that. And the moderators are encouraged to give extra non-stat based rewards if they hit the cap when grading.


All in all, grading is subjective and honestly a little arbitrary, so a transparent system isn't possible, ever mod does it differently. The system is condensed enough that the various nuances in our different methods still result in mostly similar gradings regardless of who is doing it. The stat caps have a purpose even if you disagree with them and compensation exists in the scenario of a perfect writer.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Envy » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:53 am

Quote:
0 Points: No character development whatsoever, very clear that little or no effort was put forth, or incomplete.
1 Point: No character development; likely unfinished.
2 Points: Minimal to no character development. Lacking in flow. Possibly unfinished.
3 Points: Decent topic, with interesting points, lack character development, length, or quality in a way that largely detracts from it's purpose.
4 Points:Average topic, may have character development. Involves reader and draws them into the story though still has room for improvement.
5 Points: Well written topic with interesting story that pulls reader in, some room for improvement, typically has decent character development and growth.
6 Points: Excellent topic that create dynamic emotions in the characters, reveals growth or development, or serves a larger purpose in the characters meaning. Some room from improvement, but may be perfect as is.
7 Points: Amazing character development. Reader is invested in the story and has nothing to complain about
Quote:
1.Character development
2.Challenges
3.Impact on the world
4.Storytelling
Just to put the point across that most of what you're talking about is already being considered when talking about threads and by extension plot boards.

On your point about relative difficulty I can't help but agree but with relative difficulty comes a relative reward, 10 stat points to an S rank isnt really a drop in the ocean but a D rank getting 10 stat points could count for a quarter of their total stats.
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Suzuri » Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:07 am

Onu (and Gun), I am wondering whether you ever considered 'why' you like the treads/stories/books that you do. Flow? The character's voice? The tension (which is created by detachment from the character's perspective, or by choppy sentences or something else)? Is it the descriptive bits that you find original? etc. It is just, while writing may be subjective to an extent, there are certain aspects underpinning it. Writing isn't only art: it's also science. I think that we can all agree that the worst offenders from fanfiction.net, involving Mary Sues with bad spelling, are not as good as the books/threads that we enjoy. And between them, there's a continuum. Not neccesarily one-dimensional, but a continuum nevertheless.

Reading as a writer (reading while being aware of the tricks of writing) is also one way to improve as a writer, so I thought people might be interested in it.

Saying that writing is fully subjective diminishes the writer. It suggests that improvement is not a thing. Whereas, my ideal way of grading (which does exist and work for other sites) involves, besides a number, feedback. Yes, there will always be variation between how much different people (mods included) like a certain piece of writing. But it would be lovely for a mod, besides a number, to state what they like about the piece, or how they feel it could have been improved. What Goth listed (and what Envy helpfully pointed out that is largely in the rules, thank you Envy!) could be a guideline. That would work on the 'transparency' front. As in...'5 points; good story and development, slightly lacking in flow - a suggestion would be to read aloud your posts' or '4 points; plenty of good writing, but unfinished. Watch out for overusing adjectives and verbs; they diminish the impact; example:[]'; or '7 points; I loved it! You have developed quite a poignant and unique writing style. Still, I would love to see you experiment with other styles as well!"

One of the goals of a roleplaying site should be to try to help people develop as writers. And, while practice is paramount, feedback is wonderful as well.

Envy, thank you. I think you are one of the few people that I can empathize with here. But I am thinking that, perhaps, that list is not enough. I mean - there could be a very good thread that is very good in anything except flow, and it would be worth more than 2 points. Or it could have wonderful flow, but no character development. Having the feedback criteria be more clear would be ideal.
Quote:
The stat caps are because we don't want people doing a bunch of BS cat-walking missions to get 325 stats.
Are you fully aware of what you're saying? 325 points would be equivalent of more than 46 of perfect, 7-points threads (or >54 with an average of 6). If anyone manages to be that consistent for that long of a time (how many people here have even /written/ 50 roleplaying threads?) while writing about cats*, then goddamn, give them all the points. They deserve it, and you should want to keep such a good writer around.
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*Normally, I'd expect the average to drop, because rescuing cats all the time would conflict with the 'character development' goal. But, now, if the story was about a ninja that could summon a swarm of cats, and the plotboard was of them looking for more spirit cats all over the world, some of them locked in ancient cities, others under the employ of other ninja...then it might just work!
Your statement says nothing to convince me in favor of stat caps.
Quote:
No one will ever write a perfect 7 series of topics so I d x about that.
Sure they won't, if the site is pushing the good writers away by penalizing them. I've written with people on my previous site which, here, could have hit consistent 7s. Actually...you might've had to invent something more...

Quote:
" Otherwise, I usually skim, and I'll read one full post from each participant...."
For the love of chocolate-coated ginger, Onu, just...don't. That's heartbreaking. I'm offering to read and grade threads and give feedback instead of you if you are putting that much (little) heart into it.
Quote:
On your point about relative difficulty I can't help but agree but with relative difficulty comes a relative reward, 10 stat points to an S rank isnt really a drop in the ocean but a D rank getting 10 stat points could count for a quarter of their total stats.
Envy, you have a point. But I think what you're saying should be something to be accepted, rather than frowned upon. Wasn't one of the issues that people struggled about the fact that there is nothing to encourage people to start at low levels? Didn't people want to change this? Well, this would be it. New players would have the option to start with few points, and grow stronger quickly, or start strong and grow stronger at a slower pace (relatively speaking). Having one of them receive more points for a thread of the same quantity/quality because they're stronger already is...irrational.

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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Ace Trainer » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:15 am

I should clarify.

Everything I grade takes into account the writer. A 7 for Zangy for example, is different from a 7 from Envy who is not quite a nuanced writer as Zangy is (sorry Envy), which is different from a 7 for Rain, who has English as his second language. The writer doesn't really diminish my criterion for grading because I take them into account. It's mostly irrelevant though which is why I don't mention it.

This is why I say the grading is subjective.

I don't have any goals as a rp forum other than to create an environment people enjoy. If someone wants to stagnate as a writer, its not my responsibility to encourage them to improve, nor should it be the system. This also artificially punishes people who struggle to improve because of learning disabilities, or language barriers.

We have certain parameters we set forth, etc etc, because rp environment or whatever, I think its kind of elitist tbh but I roll with the punches. I can't open spoilers so no idea what you're saying in it. Yes I'm aware what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with the curve of effort and more to do with the curve of balance.

WHICH LEADS INTO THIS BEAUTY:

This is not a PvE Forum. Writing is not everything, on PvE forums all that matters is writing because the rest doesn't particularly matter. This forum is mixed PvE and PvP and there is more to take into consideration than "I writes gud" I hear you guys loud and clear, we have had these discussion. We debated caps for like 3 days straight. Writing good topics about catching cats IS NOT deserving of being at the stat cap, which is the problem that is all but entirely ignored in this thread.

It has nothing to do with heart. you guys write long boring ass threads. Or I have 30 minutes to grade 10 socials. Or its late, and there are 5 "meet and greet" threads sitting around waiting to be graded. I can have a litany of excuses honestly. The system is geared towards conciseness and expediency, which is why I can do it that way. Everything on this forum is designed to be as streamlined as possible, and will continue to do so because I will always be lacking in staff, especially as the forum and it's member base ages.

Honestly the point is, per the usual point, there is more to consider than is being considered in this thread. You guys are members, you're not expected to look at things in the same scope that the mods are expected to, no different than the mods look at things in a different scope than Vyr and myself do. I don't say that to diminish what you're saying, I say it to point out that this is stuff that has already been thought about. I'm well aware of what I don't like about the plot board system, I really do wish there was a way that threads could be graded with a matrix that way I never had to read them. The plot board system is, more or less, finished in its present form. Trust me on that because it's took me 8 years and countless iterations of grading systems to come to it. I'm sure in a year or so we're going to change it again because it isn't perfect. But you're taking the wrong approach by trying to change it internally. It'd be way more efficient use of your time to think of a different version of it.
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Das Kirb
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Plotboard Issues and thoughts on solutions

Post by Das Kirb » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:00 pm

Due to age I'm cleaning this up. Feel free to re-open with a link to this to continue if desired.

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