Naruto Saigen Roleplay

So basically we removed the upper/lower body concentrations, and we wanna figure out what you guys think about it. So we'll put it to a vote. You got three options, we remove them both entirely and its a given, we combine them into one concentration, or they remain the same. This won't decide the outcome, but give us an idea of what you guys want so we can fine tune our decision. Feel free to state your arguments here, opinions, and etc for the topic. We encourage everyone to participate and give their opinion.

I'd like to shed some light on a simple fact. By creating 2 options that are for concentrations remaining, you've essentially split the voting power of those who think it should be a concentration, but differ on whether it should be one or two.

Basically, what Onu said. This is something that was meant to be intended by the system.

Exactly what Ginja said.

RN the votes is
4 (remove them)
2(keep as 1)
3(keep as 2)

This means that there are actually 5 votes against removing them. But because the vote has been split, thats not reflected in the voting. REALLY hope this gets taken into consideration when this vote is finished because this was a bad way to do the poll if not.

My opinion on this whole situation has pretty clear so just to be brief as to why I voted for them to remain I'm just gonna c/p from what said on discord.

"I’d also like to recognize that the concentration system was intentionally built in the way it was. Limiting to 18 concentrations was on purpose. So, to be perfectly fair, I think this problem isn’t so much a problem as it is an inconvenience. Someone taking 1 or 2 taijutsu concentrations shouldn’t harm the over-all build of the character, and if it does it probably means the character has too much on them, and probably isn’t supposed to have these concentrations. The concentration system was intentionally written to create this dynamic in the character designs so saying that “wasting concentrations” I think it disingenuous because if you feel like a character is losing concentrations to invest in a skill, it might be because that skill doesn’t belong on the character.

With 18 slots, if you're a ninjutsu specialist, you still have 8 slots to split between gen and tai,and 5 of them you can use on tai. So, it SHOULDN'T be an inconvenience to your character design to pick up two or three taijutsu concentrations.
If it is, its because your character isn't designed for taijutsu concentrations and you're throwing them on. Which...the system speciically intends to prevent.
The more I think about it, I don't see why this problem is a problem that needs to be solved. Its on purpose."

I can assure to split that vote to disproportion in favor of no concentrations wasn’t the intention, and it’ll definitely be noted at the end of it all.

Kind of didn't think of/forgot the idea Onu mentioned when the whole remove the concentrations thing occurred so it seemed kind of normal like "oh yeah all the styles do use them so I'm not seeing the point either" was kind of my reaction when it happened, though I did also feel like maybe there should still be a concentration so I did vote to merge them on this even before seeing what Onu said.
Having a merged concentration sounds better to me since I was never too sure why they needed to be separate things, like they usually came hand in hand anyway like if you did one or the other you usually did both or would aim to have both by the end from what I have seen.
Though, admittedly, I suppose upper body is more valuable than lower body and was the one that actually went with everything more than lower body since everyone is more likely using their arms and not kicking or anything like that but most kickers I think would also have some amount of upper body still so they could eaisly be one concentration in my mind.

For now I'm leaning towards the 'one combined conc to cover both' option.

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Tai concs are something that have irked me to a degree for a long time, so I was interested when this discussion came up. In my opinion (and based on the current rules as they've been used since the big flip/tai revamp), a nin/ele/gen/etc. specialist who is limited to 5 taijutsu concentrations is more restricted as to what he can achieve with tai than what a taijutsu specialist can achieve with access to 5 nin or 5 gen concs. This creates a slight (potential) imbalance towards generalists and taijutsu specialists, since tai concs become more useful the more you have access to - they work together in various styles, complimenting one another to unlock more potential than any one conc itself provides. The current system restricts the available number of all out-of-spec concs as if all conc types are equal (such as in the pre-tai overhaul days where tai concs represented individual styles rather than the current scenario where tai concs are simply components of various potential styles).

By this I mean that a taijutsu specialist who takes up Katon, Doton, Raiton, Fuuton and Suiton concentrations can still access the full potential of those concs to the same extent (minus s(40)-s(45) ninjutsu/stats) that a generalist can - there is nothing available to generalists, except for the obvious stat ceilings, that a taijutsu spec can't also achieve.
But in the reverse scenario, a ninjutsu specialist cannot make as diverse/thorough a use of 5 tai concs that a generalist can with 8, because tai concs work together in a fundamentally different way to those of nin&gen. In the current system it's impossible to possess even a low-ranked spread of basic taijutsu, of the sort a well-rounded genin might know, because of the conc limits. Regardless of your tai stat, with 5 concs you can't have a "shuriken throwing" technique ([Projectile Weapons] + likely [Upper Body]) as well as a "walk quietly" technique ([Stealth] and, absurdly, [Lower Body]) and an "Ochiba-style close quarters kunai fighting" technique ([Deft Hands], [Sword Weapons] and [Upper Body]) because you can't have all those concs at once without being a generalist or tai spec. Consider also a style like the HHD's "Senbon style", which itself requires 5(!) concs to take up. Choosing to take that one style can lock in all your taijutsu options. Want to use the iconic senbon style but also want a technique to reliably land a solid sidekick? Tough, you can't because that needs a sixth conc...

That said, as this discussion has continued, I've quickly realised that the main part of this problem is not inherently in the number or distinction of the tai concs, but in the attitude we have towards assigning them to different styles. It's clear to me that many of these styles don't need many of the concs they currently have as requirements - it's become a self-imposed restriction because, until now, the rules have stated that that all taijutsu, regardless of rank, complexity, or style, needs one or more conc prerequisites. This has led to us trying to justify every vaguely-relevant conc being required for any&every jutsu/style. The fact that even a simple D-ranked straight punch technique must require a conc (and therefore needs 'Upper Body', as it's the closest relevant one available) is the larger problem, as opposed to the number/type of concs available - and I can say that from personal experience, having been firmly denied multiple times by different staff members when trying to argue that conc requirements like that shouldn't be necessary.

Removing UB/LB concs was just one of several solutions, and having read the ongoing discussions about it, I agree it's not the correct one. Seeing Ginja's arguments for what sort of styles/techs would need concs like those has certainly convinced me that there is a space for them - it's just different to what is currently ruled. Complicated, exotic fighting styles that require fanciful upper body control beyond what a regular person is capable of sounds like a perfect application for a conc; but slapping it on every punch, every sword style, and every combat technique that is even vaguely related to using one's arms... That is stupid and is what I think needs to be addressed.

So - I'm in favour of keeping the concs, though I'm not yet convinced that there's a necessity to distinguish between upper and lower body. I could be swayed if there is a solid argument for both, mind. Considering the complexity of techniques that would require one of Upper or Lower Body concs, in more cases than not, I think there would be a solid case for requiring both of them. For that reason I'd advocate using a single "Advanced Body Control" (or wtte) rather than needing to use two separate UB/LB concs in tandem.

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As to Onu's point about this being the original intent of the tai system--you're absolutely right, but that changed considerably when we later introduced paid abilities. The system was designed to make people carefully pick and choose their characters' skills, but then we built in a workaround that allowed people to very easily circumvent that and go back to tacking-on any and everything that took their fancy (so long as they pay for it). It's one of the reasons I was against the paid ability system in the first place -- but here we are, further down that 'slippery slope'. We can no longer say that the system is built to prevent people having access to everything when we've set up such an easy avenue to do just that. This change is part of that same philosophy, from the realisation that two overused (if incorrectly used) concs can be detrimental to the tai system.

I'm ~ about combining it to 1, but I can see it being a choice and I definitely agree its a better choice than removing it entirely. I see where Valkier is coming from and while I disagree with some points, I agree to an extent at the end so I cba to nitpick lol.

I disagree, however, that paid abilities means that that philosophy has changed. If that philosophy has changed, then the concentration system should be reassessed entirely. If anything, the philosophy has changed to "we can allow slightly more dynamic builds at a sizeable cost." This doesn't fall under that at all, this is still contrary to that. Additionally, the paid abilities comes with the precursor that 1) you're paying out the ass for it. 2) you're losing an ability slot which is arguably more valuable than a concentration slot. Theres a reason there are only 3 of those and 18 concentration slots. I think theres a lot of false equivalency in that sentiment. Regardless, the paid abilities was an necessary evil, the removal of these concentrations reflects an conscious and dedicated departure from the intent of the concentrations system and if thats the mentality of the staff, the concentration systems limits should be removed entirely, not arbitrarily.

I think that it should remain 2 concentrations, specifically for this generalized reason:

Boxing, and Sanji's Black Foot style.

Now, currently these two styles aren't in the archives at all, and as far as I'm aware there aren't any custom styles that are like them/are them either. Regardless, though, the fact that these styles COULD be made into a thing is reason enough to keep the concentrations around as two separate ones, rather than just combining them into two. I've heard the argument that in either style you're still technically using your upper or lower body, yeah, but like... in Boxing that equates to standing around and moving (I'm generalizing, hush all you sports fans out there) and with Black Foot you're more often than not using your upper body for balance. You know. Like you do when you stand up normally.

My point is they aren't intrinsic to the style itself and it would make far more sense for Boxing to be made as an upper body orientated style while Black Foot be made into a lower body one (Also note, just to be clear, not saying that these need to be made into a thing. I'm just using them as two obvious generalities).

Anyways that's the long and short of it.

They should remain, it's systematically correct.

And no, kicking and punching and the motor skill involved in intricate upperbody things vs lower body does exist. Seperate is fine.

Richard brought up a good point. Abilities were introduced to keep the snowflakes to a dull roar, while concentrations were introduced to enforce thematic cohesion. Erroneously so, I'd say. That idea has merit, but even genin should be able to punch, kick and have a maudicum of stealth with average stats, which are still better than the average human.

In the short term sure, combine them. But we should probably look closely at the overall worth of a Concentration slot in the long term. A single elemental slot can facilitate jutsu used for offense, defense and utility and is competitive from low to high level combat. Real world fighting styles usually encompass striking, weapon and often grappling techniques without branching too far outside of a single recognizable tradition.

If a taijutsu style were to encompass a single offense, defense and utility concentration within a single slot, I don't think that's worth more than the ability to shape an element at will or make things disappear into a piece of paper.

Or we ditch them entirely and find other ways of encouraging people to specialize.

Saigen throughout its long history, has a tendency to change things that aren't actually broken or really need to be tampered with. From my perspective, this would be another one of those things. Instead of meddling with Uppper and Lower body, getting together a cohesive system down for Poisons and a weapon chart "might" be a better thing to focus on. As far as I know both the U.Body and L. body concentrations were fine and functional as they were.

Just my two cents.

The reason I leaned more towards pushing them into a single concentration was more so because I do feel that there should be a concentration for it, even if it feels almost mandatory, and based on my current working with companions of late. Them having only four slots available. Which in turn limits them quite a bit in term of being able to even take on a second style or use another weapon proficiency concentration.