Alice

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Alice

Post by Calibretto » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:20 am

So, life has proven I am in fact not as ready as I initially thought. I apologize for the added stress i've caused. If life allows it later I will resubmit an application for a character. Thank you for the time you've spent with me.
Last edited by Calibretto on Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by Nick » Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:35 am

Alice's existence is a little unclear. Is she Mystra, or something Mystra created? Is "Alice" just a nickname for the doll that Mystra inhabits? If she's her own person and Mystra inhabits her like a standard spirit would, how did Mystra do so? As far as I know, creation genma is the only thing that can make 'dolls' with what is effectively AI. Just need a more detailed explanation of what you're going for and maybe I can help you nail it down better.

As we discussed in chat, you need to better define what pheromones do. I'm not asking for a list of literally everything that's possible for them; something like the "notes" section for this characters genma. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8340708

We also discussed that this ability is really wide and doesn't seem interconnected very much. You mentioned that it only 'seems' that way, but could you elaborate on what that means?

I might not understand how space time works (I don't really lmao), but the form 2 ability of your spirit just... gives you the concentration for free? Nothing else?

Copy - This is huge, and an ability all on its own. I like the idea personally so I'm not gonna say no to it, but it definitely takes up its own ability slot. You can maybe clean up the phrasing on it a bit by mentioning it can only steal KKG/bloodline stuff, which prevents it from stealing Nth stat abilities, companion master, or other things that aren't really fitting. It would also help to better explain HOW the ability is doing what its doing, and imo rephrasing to only kkg helps explain that a bit already.

Likewise, you'll need to remove the idea that there's dice rolls involved in the ability. As much as I love "random" effects, there's no way to control it on the forum unless you have a mod rolled your dice for you to ensure fairness and impartiality, and nobody wants to do that. Trust me, I've tried.
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Post by Calibretto » Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:28 pm

Im also ok with conversations in discord. But here is some direct answers.
Quote:
Alice's existence is a little unclear. Is she Mystra, or something Mystra created? Is "Alice" just a nickname for the doll that Mystra inhabits? If she's her own person and Mystra inhabits her like a standard spirit would, how did Mystra do so? As far as I know, creation genma is the only thing that can make 'dolls' with what is effectively AI. Just need a more detailed explanation of what you're going for and maybe I can help you nail it down better.
The general gist of it is that a random spirit from the multi-verse was trapped in an elemental body core in the same manner that you would normally make an elemental body. I did not specify the souls original race because that is sort of part of the point of the character, im going for an isekai theme. Mystra became "trapped" as well , in the same manner that a genma is sealed inside a person. Thus ... ebody + spirit.
Quote:
As we discussed in chat, you need to better define what pheromones do. I'm not asking for a list of literally everything that's possible for them; something like the "notes" section for this characters genma. viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8340708
Would this note suffice?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The user generates and has complete control over chakra based pheromones. Pheromones are a secreted or excreted chemical factor that triggers a mental or social response in oneself and others, including releasing pheromones that induce attraction between subjects (or within a subject for oneself), to exuding pheromones strong enough to induce sleep, change/influence emotions, draw crowds, etc.

Pheromones may induce a variety of states including but not limited to pleasure, or may put subjects into a state of high suggestibility. Other uses of these pheromones can be used to mark territory (causing people to feel the compulsion to not go into a certain area), or to leave a pheromone path which others can follow. The user's pheromones may even increase physical stamina, slightly stimulate the healing process or (used offensively) cause foes to become disoriented, violent or extremely sick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
We also discussed that this ability is really wide and doesn't seem interconnected very much. You mentioned that it only 'seems' that way, but could you elaborate on what that means?
Thats going to be hard to do. Its an overall isekai concept. And you'd have to have read a bunch of isekai's like "so im a spider so what" or "reincarnated as a slime" to fully see what i mean. But basically mystra is acting as the "system" in those worlds , the computer ai that helps the protagonist. Her granted abilities are geared towards doing that. Pheromones allows me to integrate some psionic/HUD style things and some basic combat debuffs. the s/t realm is like the protagonists dimnesional pocket. etc.

Quote:
I might not understand how space time works (I don't really lmao), but the form 2 ability of your spirit just... gives you the concentration for free? Nothing else?
Yes and no. I left all the science out of it that I could, spacetime is a very fun topic for me. But in essence It grants the s/t , and grants me an allay of stat drain when anyone is inside my realm. Either friend or foe. Super useful since i planned on using it mostly as a hub for my adventurers guild and some item storage. It also lets me overlay my domain like realm summoning but im probably going to tinker a technique to do that anyway.

Quote:
Copy - This is huge, and an ability all on its own. I like the idea personally so I'm not gonna say no to it, but it definitely takes up its own ability slot. You can maybe clean up the phrasing on it a bit by mentioning it can only steal KKG/bloodline stuff, which prevents it from stealing Nth stat abilities, companion master, or other things that aren't really fitting. It would also help to better explain HOW the ability is doing what its doing, and imo rephrasing to only kkg helps explain that a bit already.
Its not just KKG because not all abilities are "kkg, nth , companion" some are just random freeform. This was modled after Neito Monoma from BNHA and like the "mimic" ability in some isekai anime/manhwa/manga

The clean up is already listed at the end here:
--------------------------------------
The below listed abilities cannot be copied: Any Nth Stat Ability, Companion-based Ability. If the ability has a corresponding concentration to run it that is also part of what is copied temporarily.
--------------------------------------

Quote:
Likewise, you'll need to remove the idea that there's dice rolls involved in the ability. As much as I love "random" effects, there's no way to control it on the forum unless you have a mod rolled your dice for you to ensure fairness and impartiality, and nobody wants to do that. Trust me, I've tried.
My original idea was that i could pick one. But i was told to use that specific formula since it takes control out of my hands and thus becomes more acceptable. Would my picking it be acceptable to go back to?

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Post by Niro » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:49 pm

The general gist of it is that a random spirit from the multi-verse was trapped in an elemental body core in the same manner that you would normally make an elemental body. I did not specify the souls original race because that is sort of part of the point of the character, im going for an isekai theme. Mystra became "trapped" as well , in the same manner that a genma is sealed inside a person. Thus ... ebody + spirit. <-This isn't how the history reads. It reads as a spirit creates an e-body and has to unlock its former powers. It's a single existence as written. If she'd like to go by Alice instead of Mystra that's completely fine but as it reads, there's only a single entity.

Pheromone note is fine imo

Link to form 2 as such: she's a S/T spirit and through her accumulated knowledge, manifests her powers through pheromone control/manip. Might make more sense to move to e-body ability if staff accepts the reasoning.
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Post by Nick » Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:15 pm

Working with Zao to make some executive decisions on stuff so we don't hold this up forever.

"No" to free concentrations on your elemental body ability, and we're asking for a modification to how your elemental body functions and can take on other elemental properties. The only other multi-element elemental body requires you to have kinesis of any element you want to have be part of your elemental body. We agreed that's a little extreme, so the next reasonable step is an S rank pyramid of any element you want to turn your body into.

"No" to allaying the cost of others being inside of your S/T realm. Others being in your S/T realm usually has a cost to them AND you, so you could pull ALL of that cost onto yourself rather than splitting it amongst visitors, but that's about as far as that goes.

Copying abilities is going to need some work. Being able to instantly swap out ability slots on the fly especially with the existence of companions is too good. Likewise, relying on dice rolls isn't gonna fly, as mentioned before. We settled on a three-post cooldown between swapping abilities, and also with the restriction that you have to see someone use an ability in order to copy it.

Overall, you're stacking too many things into your Nth stat ability that are only tangentially related thanks to a meta thing that doesn't really exist in the world (Not to say that it would be okay even if they were closely inter-related anyway). With it being an Nth stat ability, it definitely has SOME leeway in how much goes into it, but not all that much. The pheromone idea alone is its whole own ability slot, and if it were a genma where that was all you got on the ability, it would probably still be seen as a good ability. Likewise, the copy thing is its own unique ability that should take up its whole own slot. Not even mentioning that you have a blank space to add another ability onto it later. You can at least sort of relate copying and pheromones together, but regardless, copying should for sure be its own slot.
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Post by Calibretto » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:59 pm

Quote:
The general gist of it is that a random spirit from the multi-verse was trapped in an elemental body core in the same manner that you would normally make an elemental body. I did not specify the souls original race because that is sort of part of the point of the character, im going for an isekai theme. Mystra became "trapped" as well , in the same manner that a genma is sealed inside a person. Thus ... ebody + spirit. <-This isn't how the history reads. It reads as a spirit creates an e-body and has to unlock its former powers. It's a single existence as written. If she'd like to go by Alice instead of Mystra that's completely fine but as it reads, there's only a single entity.
I'm fine with being regarded as Alice and leaving it at mystra making a new body for herself. If staff is ok with this. Otherwise ill try to better tweak the history.
Quote:
Pheromone note is fine imo
Will add

Quote:
"No" to free concentrations on your elemental body ability, and we're asking for a modification to how your elemental body functions and can take on other elemental properties. The only other multi-element elemental body requires you to have kinesis of any element you want to have be part of your elemental body. We agreed that's a little extreme, so the next reasonable step is an S rank pyramid of any element you want to turn your body into.
I do not find S rank pyramids of all concentrations reasonable. Can it be A rank? And can the 1st be free so that im not concless on it at first?

Quote:
"No" to allaying the cost of others being inside of your S/T realm. Others being in your S/T realm usually has a cost to them AND you, so you could pull ALL of that cost onto yourself rather than splitting it amongst visitors, but that's about as far as that goes.
Can i expand this into form 1 and 2 to cover the "cost" of allaying stat costs? This point is really a heavy point for the character for me. And as it stands with the existing s/t rules, putting "all" that cost on a character is literally unplayable.
Quote:
Copying abilities is going to need some work. Being able to instantly swap out ability slots on the fly especially with the existence of companions is too good. Likewise, relying on dice rolls isn't gonna fly, as mentioned before. We settled on a three-post cooldown between swapping abilities, and also with the restriction that you have to see someone use an ability in order to copy it.
Im fine with this
Quote:
Overall, you're stacking too many things into your Nth stat ability that are only tangentially related thanks to a meta thing that doesn't really exist in the world (Not to say that it would be okay even if they were closely inter-related anyway). With it being an Nth stat ability, it definitely has SOME leeway in how much goes into it, but not all that much. The pheromone idea alone is its whole own ability slot, and if it were a genma where that was all you got on the ability, it would probably still be seen as a good ability. Likewise, the copy thing is its own unique ability that should take up its whole own slot. Not even mentioning that you have a blank space to add another ability onto it later. You can at least sort of relate copying and pheromones together, but regardless, copying should for sure be its own slot.
Hard disagree on pheromones. They are a concentration. Not a light weight one, but definitely not an ability. And i already understand staff cant see the connectivity of it and thats fine if its not playing any factors in rulings. Would staff be happier if i took the previously quoted 3 post cooldown, have to see it to copy it ,etc and shoved it into the 3rd/final form? If we take the s/t issues from before into account it would look something like:

Form-0=Pheromone concentration
Form-1=S/T Domain concentrated on self
Form-2=S/T Realm control expands to deepen and allow allaying of costs to be here.
Form-3=Copy ability with restrictions listed above

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Post by Nick » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:29 am

You can start with one of the elements for free, that's not a problem, you'll just upgrade it later as time goes on. No, S-rank pyramids are as reasonable as it gets to unlock more forms, though. Again, the only other example requires full kinesis of that element, lol.

Got some more opinions on the S/T thing -- Apparently, someone's doing this already, and it's okay, but it's definitely its own ability slot on its own, definitely no tying it into anything else.

TLDR; If you use your third ability slot for the S/T thing, your pheromones and copying can be in your Nth stat with a bit of stretching. I'd format it more like a genma, though -- 4 forms, unlock different ranks of pheromone jutsu as you rank up, with the ultimate expression being ability stealing at max rank. This is still a bit of a stretch, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets asked to be taken down a notch at some point in the future.

In response to Niro and you about the existence of Mystra/Alice -- I don't really care if she's a permanent spirit (I'm not sure how the site feels as a whole, but a spirit player character is fine imo), or if she's some generic isekai goddess sharing the head of a human girl giving her weird magic powers, but it just needs to be clarified who/how/what/why.

EDIT: validusrex — Today at 8:47 AM
The overlaying realm into the real world bit is an ability yeah. If he goes into his realm w/ people he has to pay the cost still

Pulling people into a realm with no cost is still a no-no. For non-combat purpose, nobody is gonna care about you having tea parties in your fantasy land (I think that's one thing we discussed in discord?) but for combat purposes, you'll want to bring your realm to the world rather than the world to your realm.
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Post by Calibretto » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:22 pm

Quote:
You can start with one of the elements for free, that's not a problem, you'll just upgrade it later as time goes on. No, S-rank pyramids are as reasonable as it gets to unlock more forms, though. Again, the only other example requires full kinesis of that element, lol.
Kinesis also got changed as well. But that being said , its not the same. The precident problem is , if someone does something and overcompensates by layering tons of penalties , or heavy requirements that shouldnt feasibly be necessary it leaves future people to run off that same precident (if you're using octa-core processing for a process that needs quad core at most you're overkilling it and future users might beleive octa-core is necessary when in reality its not). Sometimes precident needs to be re-thought. As we evolve and grow as people and a site , sometimes we need to evolve and grow the precidents that set the site in motion. Additionally because they arent the same , the false-equivalent of kinesis to that feels overdone. Are we sticking solely with old precidents or is no one willing to revisit ?

Quote:
Got some more opinions on the S/T thing -- Apparently, someone's doing this already, and it's okay, but it's definitely its own ability slot on its own, definitely no tying it into anything else.
Gross. See previous precident issue. But fine, i didnt have anything for this slot yet anyway so ill shift it.

Quote:
TLDR; If you use your third ability slot for the S/T thing, your pheromones and copying can be in your Nth stat with a bit of stretching. I'd format it more like a genma, though -- 4 forms, unlock different ranks of pheromone jutsu as you rank up, with the ultimate expression being ability stealing at max rank. This is still a bit of a stretch, and I wouldn't be surprised if it gets asked to be taken down a notch at some point in the future.

This puts all the emphasis on pheromones, which as i previously stated are supposed to be a concentration. In the same aspect that the mental jutsu yamanaka can do are a single concentration. If im going to shift the s/t to its own ability i want to keep pheromones in form 0. I'll move copy to form 1 and leave 2/3 available for later expansion. And that lets me drop form 4 thus paying a little additional cost for the copy ability. Asking me to put copy in slot 4 means you're fine with it being a single slot. As my pheromones are not really any more potent or powerful than yamanaka mind goofery i dont feel they're any more in need of being split up than yamanaka would.

Quote:
In response to Niro and you about the existence of Mystra/Alice -- I don't really care if she's a permanent spirit (I'm not sure how the site feels as a whole, but a spirit player character is fine imo), or if she's some generic isekai goddess sharing the head of a human girl giving her weird magic powers, but it just needs to be clarified who/how/what/why.
I agree with you on the permanent spirit thing, but im gonna need an official ruling on if she can be one or which way i need to rewrite it. Because if staff come back again and say no it would need it yet again.
Quote:
EDIT: validusrex — Today at 8:47 AM
The overlaying realm into the real world bit is an ability yeah. If he goes into his realm w/ people he has to pay the cost still

Pulling people into a realm with no cost is still a no-no. For non-combat purpose, nobody is gonna care about you having tea parties in your fantasy land (I think that's one thing we discussed in discord?) but for combat purposes, you'll want to bring your realm to the world rather than the world to your realm.
Vehemently disagree. But nothing I can do about it as im not the boss. I'll edit that part out.

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Post by Nick » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:38 pm

Highly disagree, your pheromones, by your own description, are much more versatile than your average concentration. I'd compare it more to Genjutsu, where even though it's all illusions, it's still like 10(?) concentrations.

There isn't the room for expansion bud. You've already got a ton going on. The rough gift from nth stat abilities is 1 ability and 2 concentrations. Following the logic from before, comparing it to genjutsu in its versatility and even power, you're probably getting even more than that.
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Post by Calibretto » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:34 pm

After our conversation regarding the specifics of what you meant I have updated the app.
Changes:
  • Added channeling because i forgot to add that before
  • S/T Domain has been moved to the 3rd ability slot.
  • Pheromones have been spaced out to fill up all the nth slots except 4th form reserved for "copy"
  • Copy moved to 4th form.
On the record i hate splitting pheromones up like that. Not that it matters.

I am still waiting on final confirmation of alice's history regarding mystra. I need to know if staff as a whole are fine with me going either direction so i can pick one and do the history tweak.

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Post by Calibretto » Thu Dec 23, 2021 12:04 pm

After additional conversations the following changes have been updated
Changes:
  • Add cooldown and changed clarifier to "must have seen in effect" to copy
  • remove stat boosts.
  • add clarifier that s/t domain does not grant free s/t only unlocks it , user must still pay the concentration slot for it.
  • add s/t concentration slot that was missing previously
  • change pheromone modifier to wp instead of end per request.
I am still waiting to hear back on if i can now re-slot the domain back into the genma now that i have made the proper clarifications.

Also on final confirmation of alice's history regarding mystra. I need to know if staff as a whole are fine with me going either direction so i can pick one and do the history tweak.

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Post by Calibretto » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:16 pm

I've attempted to make the changes discussed with onu.
Changes:
  • form 0 assess chakra types/etc on sight
  • form 1 copy chakra on contact
  • form 2 copy chakra from range
  • form 3 perma-copy concentration from consumption
  • Restoration of Stat boosts as copy has its delay in place now.
  • Created concentration for pheromones.
Still awaiting final confirmation of alice's history regarding mystra. Some of staff are ok with the RP explanation of being a spirit bound to ebody form. But im awaiting a ruling.

Also I've been told before by other mods in the past its ok but because of how long ago it was i cannot remember whom, and as onu refuses to approve it himself , Im awaiting a ruling regarding having an ability slot be able to "unlock" the prerequisites for s/t so long as its still the only pinnacle allowed.

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Post by Ace Trainer » Mon Jan 17, 2022 8:08 pm

I don't know what the elemental body is made out of. I'm assuming Doton, but that should be stated explicitly. Anything else in it not related to the elemental body should be removed as it doesn't really make sense.

The way "Appraisal" is written makes it seem like its doing a lot more than telling you what the elements people have access to. You should write out explicitly what it can do if you're intending for it to do more than just that.

The ruling on characters right now is that characters must be human. So you can't be a spirit in an elemental body. My understanding is that the ruling exists largely because we don't want to define rules for spirit characters, since their limitations are different (are far looser) than humans. I would suggest writing out the limitations for Mystra that make it not better than being human (explicitly being weak to tenkujutsu, not being able to desummon, stuff like that.)

Also, my ruling is that you can't use an ability to bypass the restrictions for pinnacle skills. The ruling exists, I'm simply not so firm on it that if any other staff member feels differently that I'll raise against it.
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Post by Nick » Sat Feb 12, 2022 1:12 pm

Where are we at with this? Any updates coming?

3 days.
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Post by Calibretto » Sat Feb 12, 2022 10:42 pm

Yeah im going to need a little time. I've got some RL stuff going on right now.

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Post by Nick » Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:35 pm

Extension granted.
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Post by Valkier » Sun Feb 27, 2022 8:42 am

Calibretto:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:20 am
So, life has proven I am in fact not as ready as I initially thought. I apologize for the added stress i've caused. If life allows it later I will resubmit an application for a character. Thank you for the time you've spent with me.
Sorry to hear it Cali, wishing you all the best. Let me know if you want to return this to regs at any point.
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