Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

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Niro
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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by Niro » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:04 pm

Hi guys, this announcement deserves its very own topic. We've made some additions and changes to rank up rewards and in particular prestige perks. Now upon ranking up, characters earn 35 Points per rank up. Someone going from Genin -> Bannin would accumulate 140 Points for example. We've also reassessed prestige perks and their effectiveness while adding some new ones.

Like all of our changes, these are also retroactive. Characters who have ranked up from Genin to X can claim their points and this makeover will allow you to reconsider and swap out perks if you wish. There are some slight restrictions, however. In particular, the Beast Master perk CAN be swapped out but upon doing so you will LOSE the companion you gained with it. If you have take Inheritance previously and currently have 0 points and cannot refund it, you are stuck with it until you are able to refund the points.

Additions:
  • 35 Points on Rank Up
  • Actuary
  • Cultivate
  • Beast Tamer
  • Omega
  • Scaled Rewards
Modifications:
  • Professor word discount increased from 200 to 300
  • Sheer Determination word discount increased from 100 to 200
Above your eye may catch onto the Scaled Rewards addition and wonder just what the heck that is. Shinobi who start at Genin and rank up to Chuunin+ get a slight boost in their rewards for having started at the lowest rung of the totem poll. You can find a detailed list of Scaled Rewards at the bottom of the Prestige Perks post!


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WrightJustice
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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by WrightJustice » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:11 pm

Are the scaling rewards just the genin to chuunin rank up or do you get them for all your rank ups if you started genin?
Also I assume you would clearly differentiate on the app?
Example: Bob has Professor whilst Jim has Professor (scaling).

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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by Niro » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:15 pm

Once unlocked, Scaling Rewards continue on for the character's lifetime. So going forward and ranking from Chuunin -> Special Jounin+ you'd continue to receive them, small edit made to clarify this. Yes @ differentiate.
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Post by Hayate » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:26 am

Totally not okay with Omega, systematically.

Amount of concentrations or abilities should never be broken for any reason. Those a very hard, balanced limits. It's a very slippery slope allowing people to break and ignore those things.

A defining factor of saigen is whether you start at Jounin or Genin, your character should never have any hard power advantage over another. That was the point of perks- to give bonuses to those who take time to play story out and level, but to give bonuses on a secondary/tertiary level that didn't do things like "extra ability" or "extra power++"

It was a very defining system design decision and should continue.

i think you should undo Omega.
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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by Servant » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:43 am

But, really, you can already break concentration limits with paid abilities...

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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by Ace Trainer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:41 pm

Servant:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:43 am
But, really, you can already break concentration limits with paid abilities...
This is a bad argument, and I consistently see it come up, and it has two fundamental flaws.

Either a) you think "paid abilities" are broken
Or b) you don't think "paid abilities" are broken.

In the case of A, if you think paid abilities are broken, allowing things on the premise that paid abilities exist is a terrible argument because you're basically saying "one broken thing exists, might as well have two!" that kind of thinking is what led up to having to do the big flip. We kept having problems, and when we realized nothing could be done to resolve them we ended up having to build on top of those broken issues, which made the problems bigger and bigger. This is a shit decision from a system design perspective.

In the case of B, great, paid abilities aren't broken and are totally legitimate. Except, by merit of that, Hayate's argument stands.
Hayates argument is basically this:
Player A makes a character starting at jounin. Gives him a set of jutsu, gives him 18 concentrations, gives him 3 abilities, maxes out his stats, and is a happy camper.
Player B makes a character starting at genin. Gives him a set of jutsu, gives him the exact same 18 concentrations, gives him the exact same 3 abilities, maxes out his stats in the exact same way, and is a happy camper.

If these two characters were to face off under neutral conditions (no surprise attacks, skill of the roleplayer is roughly the same etc, etc) no character would have a clear cut edge over each other and it would simply come down to who utilizes their character better. This is what a system should aim for, especially a player controlled combat system.

With the case of Omega, Player B now has an advantage on the basis of he can have 19 concentrations. Maybe that concentration gets wasted so its useless, or maybe it becomes the deciding factor. Will it? Who knows. Could it, 100% yes. And that is a problem. You could argue that Player B did "more work" to "earn" having Omega, but at the end of the day, Player B could have easily done the bare minimum to get to where they were while Player A wrote up a fully fleshed beautifully developed character arc, so I dont' think thats a fair argument at all. To suggest someone did "more work" than me diminishes the value of the work I've done based on some systematic variable that doesn't actually account for work, once the minimum has been met.
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Prestige Perks Get a Makeover

Post by Servant » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:26 pm

Ace Trainer:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:41 pm
Servant:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:43 am
But, really, you can already break concentration limits with paid abilities...
This is a bad argument, and I consistently see it come up, and it has two fundamental flaws.

Either a) you think "paid abilities" are broken
Or b) you don't think "paid abilities" are broken.

In the case of A, if you think paid abilities are broken, allowing things on the premise that paid abilities exist is a terrible argument because you're basically saying "one broken thing exists, might as well have two!" that kind of thinking is what led up to having to do the big flip. We kept having problems, and when we realized nothing could be done to resolve them we ended up having to build on top of those broken issues, which made the problems bigger and bigger. This is a shit decision from a system design perspective.

In the case of B, great, paid abilities aren't broken and are totally legitimate. Except, by merit of that, Hayate's argument stands.
Hayates argument is basically this:
Player A makes a character starting at jounin. Gives him a set of jutsu, gives him 18 concentrations, gives him 3 abilities, maxes out his stats, and is a happy camper.
Player B makes a character starting at genin. Gives him a set of jutsu, gives him the exact same 18 concentrations, gives him the exact same 3 abilities, maxes out his stats in the exact same way, and is a happy camper.

If these two characters were to face off under neutral conditions (no surprise attacks, skill of the roleplayer is roughly the same etc, etc) no character would have a clear cut edge over each other and it would simply come down to who utilizes their character better. This is what a system should aim for, especially a player controlled combat system.

With the case of Omega, Player B now has an advantage on the basis of he can have 19 concentrations. Maybe that concentration gets wasted so its useless, or maybe it becomes the deciding factor. Will it? Who knows. Could it, 100% yes. And that is a problem. You could argue that Player B did "more work" to "earn" having Omega, but at the end of the day, Player B could have easily done the bare minimum to get to where they were while Player A wrote up a fully fleshed beautifully developed character arc, so I dont' think thats a fair argument at all. To suggest someone did "more work" than me diminishes the value of the work I've done based on some systematic variable that doesn't actually account for work, once the minimum has been met.
It's not an argument at all... it's just a fact. Paid abilities allow you to bypass concentration limits.

However, it is interesting to note that your conclusion regarding Case B (that having an extra concentration could unfairly be the deciding factor in a fight) is expressly going against the original assumption that paid abilities are not broken. Your argument assumes "paid abilities are not broken" which directly suggests "having extra concentrations is fair" but then you conclude with "having extra concentrations is not fair".

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Post by Ace Trainer » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:34 pm

?? Its a fact you're presenting to support a decision, that would make it an argument in support for Omega existing.

And I think you're misunderstanding.
First of all, Case B is presented as "If you guys are saying paid abilities aren't broken, then the presentation of Paid abilities doesn't nullify Hayate's argument that Omega is broken"

Its not "extra concentrations" its an extra concentration that is inaccessible to Player A. The distinction is important to note, and yet seems to be ignored by anyone who is in support of Omega, which is why I wrote out the argument in the way I did.
Paid abilities granting concentrations is fine because if Player A uses his ability slot for extra concentrations, so will Player B. Thats why they're always equal until the end. But, when you get to the end, Player B has access to Omega. Which, again, would be why paid abilities aren't relevant to this Omega issue, paid abilities fall into the Player A/Player B Jounin/Genin paradigm, Omega does not.
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Post by Hayate » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:58 pm

In addition to what Onu has said, I'd like to add that losing an ability for concs is an actual cost. You actually lose something to gain something, which helps the balance there, since abilities are very very worthwhile. Having a few more concs but being down an ability would maintain some form of balance.

On the flip side, Omega has no loss. You get more, for nothing beyond "I played longer than you" which is the kind of thing we should not systematically support. There shouldn't be potentially tilting powers being gained for nothing.

The goal of original perks was to award at secondary/tertiary levels to give rewards that help someone grow and customize a character, rather than give them power over others that can't be met in the end game. (End-game, the core systematic parts of a character sheet should never change. I.E. How many max Abilities, concs, etc.)
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Post by WrightJustice » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:21 pm

I mean I was surprised about omega and figured nothing like that would ever happens given Onu and Hayate's explanations, though end players can train their missing perks so its not like they completely miss out on it.
That being said the end player still has to do an extra training to earn it and any older player definitely has to take advantage of this one change to fix their perks right now.

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Post by Director » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:11 pm

WrightJustice:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:21 pm
I mean I was surprised about omega and figured nothing like that would ever happens given Onu and Hayate's explanations, though end players can train their missing perks so its not like they completely miss out on it.
That being said the end player still has to do an extra training to earn it and any older player definitely has to take advantage of this one change to fix their perks right now.
The issue is not everyone can get it. You have to start at Genin or Chuunin to even have the perk be applicable. It’s locked off from anyone starting higher than that.
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Post by WrightJustice » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:00 pm

Oh right yeah, you're right, the rank up requirement which nullifies it all.
Yeah I dunno about that now I think about it.

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