Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Kenobi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:46 am

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8341474
Interestingly enough, most end-game players are taking very high willpower... but...

Even with 50 Willpower, you will not be able to counter genjutsu because lack of an initiator means you take a whopping -5 debuff on the stat comparison. In short, it is simply not possible to counter a genjutsu user end-game. The only other option is to take near-death damage, which also basically has no purpose since you might as-well just die then? Or knock yourself out- same issue.


Kai'ing used to be much more balanced with break points based on the rank of the Genjutsu being cast on you, not the users Genjutsu stat. Since Genjutsu still do not scale, it does not make sense that it becomes a direct willpower v willpower roll. It should be based on the rank of the genjutsu put on you still.

Additionall, I feel like a Gen users control should matter too, since genjutsu effectively controls someones mind via chakra. If control is required to Kai as-well (two stat checks to kai) it should cost two stat checks to cast.

Gen just seems to be a bit strong right now.

So proposals.
Strike initiator line. That would already help a great deal.
Make the Genjutsu caster's control matter and/or make Gen kai requirements based on the jutsu rank again (perhaps tying control into this again too)


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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Golnax » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:59 pm

Pretty sure I have a reputation for being anti nerf on this site, but for once? I'ma say it.

Nerf genjutsu.

It might seem like I'm a bit biased because of my particular build but honestly Hayate just made some very solid points. That -5 debuff is just kind of absurd and in no other type of jutsu would something like this be tolerated. Hell I'm currently in the process of trying to make endgame katon ninjutsu passed through mods and it feels like the scrutiny on that is a lot more tight and controlled than it is on genjutsu.

Now normally I'd also say that the near-death wounding is harsh, but not impossible to overcome. Considering that every end game character gets regeneration now, it's not at all impossible to just harm yourself terribly, set up defenses and then just heal it out for a turn or two. In my case specifically I've chosen to augment for regenerative abilities for just such an occasion.

But, given the -5 debuff on top of that? Even if you have 50 willpower and regenerative capabilities, the likelihood of you actually winning against someone who casts an overlay or warp genjutsu against you is pretty slim. Hell a huge part of my build is designed around dealing with this eventuality, and now to learn that even someone who has invested in Willpower as a primary stat also faces these same problems? That just flat out seems unfair and broken.

I'm in agreement. Kai should actually matter, and Control should be part of genjutsu stats. Nerf genjutsu for the betterment of the site as a whole.

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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Kenobi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:06 pm

Exactly. I don't even have as much of an issue with willpower vs willpower- which is still OP and I think the Genjutsu using party's Control needs to matter too.

That -5 just makes it impossible to resist a gen jutsu users gen, with no counterplay.

Also: Arguements like "heh dont let them use the gen be faster" are bad at best. That literally is every type of jutsu or attack on the board, being faster than your opponent to strike is not a valid balancing argument FOR genjutsu what so ever.


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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Golnax » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:12 pm

Even if that argument COULD be applied to genjutsu properly - that would just shift the focus onto Speed being misused and being OP if you have 50 Speed or not. Hell Speed has been a continuous issue in the past but is ultimately answered by responsible roleplaying and understanding how the stats in the system work.

You apparently can't do that with genjutsu it seems, and that's really not OK.

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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Ace Trainer » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:28 pm

Hayate, we've had this conversation like 5 times, are you just giong to keep making the same arguments over and over again until we decide we don't feel like arguing with you anymore?

You didn't actually say anything in your opening post, you literally say the "You take a -5, in short its impossible to cancel." Despite presenting 0 arguments as to why thats the case.
Genjutsu takes the longest to cast, requires you to actually land your initiator, the only type of genjutsu that has a high likelihood of being quick to end a fight(overlay) requires the most amount of chakra, blocks you from taking S/T, Kinesis, or HT, has higher requirements, and takes longer to cast.

In fact, when we were building genjutsu, the -5 from initiators was introduced because everyone realized without it, genjutsu becomes virtually useless. Without it, everyone can break out of your genjutsu. People will still invest in 50 WP, but now they don't have to use up any concentration slots to counter genjuts. Spec for 50 WP and you've completely removed genjutsu as a concern at all. But based on your ranting, I'm betting you haven't even taken that into consideration (despite me having told you this before????)

Not to mention WP is on a sliding scale (also in the rules) so even if you can't kai, if you have 45 WP, you won't be immediately put out of commission by an S50 overlay (like you keep suggesting) or subjugated by status to the point of being unable to defend yourself (like you keep suggesting)

I'd also like to include that
"Kai'ing used to be much more balanced with break points based on the rank of the Genjutsu being cast on you, not the users Genjutsu stat."
is literally already in the rules

There is a max WP that is needed to break from any rank, D-rank 40, C-rank 42, A-rank 45, etc. Which makes me assume that your journey to weaken genjutsu is based on a lack of understanding of the rules. These caps, btw, also effectively force genjutsu users to use max-rank genjutsu at end game. Unlike ninjutsu, where your entire kit can be used, and you can get off quick D-ranks in a sinch, genjutsu can't really do that.

The fight for utilizing genjutsu is a lot more than "WP check", your inability to understand that is not a fault of the system.
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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Kenobi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:36 pm

Actually land your initiator? Please, first off every jutsu has to actually land to have an effect thats a non-arguement. In fact, sound initiated genjutsu is even easier to land then a Raiton bullet. Doesn't matter how fast your opponent runs, etc. Sound wins. Touch initiation is literally the same as Taijutsu. cut the crap man.

And if they "don't hear" they are metagaming and the mods can side with you to have them edit.

50WP or not, people still get caught in Genjutsu- and as you illustrate with Shio, you will still win at 50WP because you debuff everyone in his range -1WP, meaning your genjutsu will always be not kaiable. Ever. you have likelt a +6 over nearly everyone who gets gen'd. Which is a big enough difference to do a lot of damage.

As for WP being a sliding scale- 6 point difference is still a pretty big difference no?

Take this jutsu from Shio, for example:

Messiah
S-rank Status Genjutsu
Prerequisite: 50 Will Power, the user must remain speaking for the duration of the genjutsu.
A genjutsu designed to be performed on large groups, after forming the proper hand seals, the user will speak. They can speak on any topic, and anyone who hears their voice while this genjutsu is active will be captured in it. This technique lasts for 10 posts, but will end prematurely if the user stops speaking at any point. Because the initiator is rolling with their voice, the impact of the technique is based on the length they’ve been within it, not the length in which it’s been active.
1st post: The afflicted will feel an overwhelmingly desperate urge to find the source of the voice and keep their eyes on the source.
2nd Post: Once they have seen the user, the afflicted will feel a sudden feeling of both reverence and fear that gets increasingly powerful over the course of the technique. Those without strong wills will feel as if they need to surrender, hopelessness sinking into their gut,
3rd Post: The afflicted will feel weakness through their body, increasing as any distance between themselves and the user is reduced, making resistance and the even movement incredibly mentally taxing.
4th Post: Anyone within the genjutsu this long will feel their willpower draining from them, most often completely paralyzed by the overwhelming authority of the user.
5th Post; Most anyone will have felt all power drained from their body, falling to their knees in reverence, fear, and obedience.
For all posts following this feeling is only increased and compounded.
The user cannot act in a way that would bring harm to any of the victims of this technique or the technique will end.

This is pretty much going to be fully effective- always.

Worse: The user cannot act in a way that would bring harm to any of the victims of this technique or the technique will end.
But in a world of companions and multi-player wars, someone else can just kill the now completely incapacitated person- who had no ability to counter or break the incapacitation.

Ninjutsu and Tai generally have much more ways to be countered, Gen just simply doesn't.


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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Ace Trainer » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:51 pm

"In fact, sound initiated genjutsu is even easier to land then a Raiton bullet. Doesn't matter how fast your opponent runs, etc. Sound wins. Touch initiation is literally the same as Taijutsu. cut the crap man."

Which would suggest most shinobi would be proficient in responding to sound based genjutsu, or be prepared to stop them, no? In fact, multiple characters already have anti-sound stuff. Its a D-rank jutsu.

"Touch initiation is literally the same as Taijutsu. cut the crap man."

We were literally talking less than 24 hours ago about how hard mix builds are now, and suddenly you're suggesting that someone with 50 WP is also going to be proficient enough at taijutsu that they can easily land a touch on you? Huge heel turn from what we were saying yesterday. You cut the crap man.

Using Shio is a great example, honestly, because its an example of how much work I have to put into a character to make genjutsu viable and easy to use. You're presenting it as "-1 WP"

But in reality its, 2 Ability Slots, 50 WP, a -5 CP, and several jutsu that make it so that I can land my genjutsu easy, and even then I still support Shio with taijutsu because genjutsu is so unreliable So, if you're using Shio as an example of how genjutsu is overpowered, I'd like you to present to me any other character that requires as much as Shio to make their fighting style viable. Otherwise, Shio is an example of how hard it is to make genjutsu a viable style on its own.

-6 is not a big difference, in fact our entire system is built around a 5 stat deficit being negligible and able to be overcome. So -6 would be just on the outer edge of negligible. Someone could survive a -6 deficit, would it be easy? No, but its certainly possible.

Which once again suggests your issues with genjutsu displays a lack of understanding, not an inherent flaw.
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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Kenobi » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:18 pm

You can't use anti-sound unless someone has already used a sound genjutsu on them or you know their character. Going into a thread and being like "antisound" would be complete metagaming.

"We were literally talking less than 24 hours ago about how hard mix builds are now, and suddenly you're suggesting that someone with 50 WP is also going to be proficient enough at taijutsu that they can easily land a touch on you? Huge heel turn from what we were saying yesterday. You cut the crap man."


? Shio's is literal proof you can have 50 WP and be proficient enough to do so. Even easier given how OP taijutsu techniques can be now. So Shio is a great example of why this particular comment is wrong.

"So, if you're using Shio as an example of how genjutsu is overpowered, I'd like you to present to me any other character that requires as much as Shio to make their fighting style viable. Otherwise, Shio is an example of how hard it is to make genjutsu a viable style on its own."
Both of my main characters have their abilities and scores of jutsu dedicated to just making them a viable way of fighting on their own lol. Earth Genma & Hayate.

Alright, if you say so @6 not being that big a deal.


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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Ace Trainer » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:26 pm

In making Shio reliable in taijutsu, I had to dump control (it at 30 rn), and he's at 42 Speed which wouldn't be very reliable against an end-game taijutsu users. In fact the removal of the taijutsu stat negatively impacted Shio. Its really weird how you can tell me my own character is good at something, when I've been complaining for months how the revamp made him less good at it, lol.

Hayate doesn't require multiple abilities to make ninjutsu offensively reliable, I don't know why you would even suggest that.
Earth genma, like genjutsu, is a supplemental skillset, and you added 1 additional ability (without a stat req, cp drain) to make it offensive. So, not really comparable.
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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Golnax » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:32 pm

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding the argument that genjutsu is virtually useless without a -5 debuff. To me that suggests an inability to think of creative, subtle genjutsu - because aside from mind melting effects like the above quoted Messiah tech (which is neat, gotta say), lower rank genjutsu should be about how to subtly manipulate senses in order to gain the upper hand in combat.

I'll use a perfect canon example in the fight between Sasuke and Danzo, where at the end of the fight it's revealed that Danzo got put under a gen to make him think that one of his sharringan was still open when it wasn't, thus over extending himself. That might be a bit too specific of an example but the general gist I think is how good low rank genjutsu should be; subtle.

Saying that genjutsu 'doesn't work' without 50 WP just seems silly to me in general when you could design a genjutsu that makes it so when you snap a twig, any one who hears the twig snap will, oh I don't know, not be able to perceive the user as actually being where they are. The genjutsu could make them always seem just slightly off from where they are, I don't know I'm literally making this up as I go but that's an example of a low rank genjutsu that could be useful in most situations that would be downright hard to ignore without meta gaming.

Moving on, I also don't understand the touch initiation being difficult thing? Like I understand what you were saying about mixed builds being difficult now, believe me I know I'm a prime example of someone who went hard on a Nin-Tai build, but like... it isn't hard at all to invest in 50 Will Power and 50 Speed. At that point you're a gen build that's very fast and should act as such, meaning if you have a higher rank genjutsu that has a touch initiator you'd start things off probably by casting a genjutsu that would make touching your opponent easier, then just zip behind them, touch them and bam, genjutsu initiatied.

I find it funny how its' brought up that there are low ranked techs to combat genjutsu, yet the inverse should also be true? If genjutsu is so difficult to make work at high ranks without an innate advantage at end game, then perhaps my initial stance was mistake: Perhaps genjutsu should be buffed instead of nerfed?

But not without getting rid of that -5 debuff first. Again, in no other specialization would something like that be allowed from my experience.

Additionally, when did a 5 stat difference not become a big deal? Was it sometime during the revamp? Because I've been working on the assumption that for the longest time stats were exponential, meaning that each point you increased in a stat made you exponentially better at that given thing. That's how I've understood how we go from 10 Speed being Usain Bolt and 50 being literal god levels of Speed and all else in between for Speed and every other stat. Now you're trying to say that a 6 stat point advantage isn't actually that big of a deal? That would make for an entirely different design philosophy than what I've understood for quite a while now which might just be on me, but if so then why are stats sectioned off and described as 'godly' at end game at all if they can just be overcome by someone in a tier below them with enough effort?

In summary: Low rank genjutsu isn't (or shouldn't) be useless because with genjutsu more than any other specialty it's all about how you use it and less about what it does. Subtly should be king. I have to agree with Hayate here in that saying that something requires a lot of build up or for it to land in order for it to work is a non argument because that is in fact how literally everything works on this site, especially if you're serious about your build and actually take steps to enable some of the more difficult things you want to make happen happen. And lastly, when did stat differences actually start to mean so little? How is it a legitimate argument that at end game as long as you have 45 WP, you should be able to overcome something that requires 50 WP to cast in the first place?

Perhaps I do simply not understand how the system works personally, and if so that's on me, but I really don't find these arguments to be convincing as to why at end game stats one person using genjutsu can just impose a -5 debuff upon someone else as they please. That isn't something that's inherently balanced against the rest of the specializations in my eyes as I understand this system.

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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Nafan~ » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:25 am

Why Genjutsu isn’t Overpowered.

Genjutsu operates on a Willpower vs Willpower system. We can see how this operates from three locations in the rules. The first is in the Stats and How they Work page, which provides:
Quote:
Will Power: The Will Power stat, usually shortened to Will, has a dual purpose. The first determines your ability to exert and resist the hypnotic effect of genjutsu. Characters with high Will Power are not only able to cast stronger genjutsu, but resist them easily, where-as characters with low Will Power quickly fall to the effects of the genjutsu. The second determines your ability to persevere through mental effects, less Will Power means you are more susceptible to the effects of confusion, hypnosis, mind control, intimidation, and the like.
The second and third both come from the Genjutsu write up on Rules Page 3:
Quote:
Now, the interesting thing about overlay genjutsu is that it gives you a "fake" body. Keep in mind in an overlay genjutsu NOTHING is real. It's all in your head, so the kunai flying at your face won't actually stab you, while in an illusion genjutsu, the kunai might divide into 3, and only one of them will actually stab you. This doesn't mean that you can walk off an Overlay, due to the mental stress that they cause, they are able to debilitate those that are weak in genjutsu. The 'damage' done in Overlay genjutsu is based on the user's Will Power stat versus the caster's Will Power stat.
Quote:
Kai is a ninjutsu technique used by shinobi to break genjutsu. The technique causes the user to momentarily stop the flow of their chakra, disrupting the illusion and breaking it. Genjutsu are highly hypnotic however, and allow the user to express their Will over the target. In order to perform Kai, the target must have Willpower equal to or greater than the user. If they pass this check, then they can perform Kai, assuming they meet the control requirement to perform Kai.
From these three sources we can see that Willpower not only casts Gen but resists its effects inherently as a statistic. This means that the amount of mental damage that a person takes from a genjutsu is reliant on the relationship of Caster’s Will (CW) against Target’s Will (TW). So even if person A is caught in an S50 Status Genjutsu, the degree to which that genjutsu is capable of overwriting their natural thought patterns and emotions, and remain unnoticed by the target, is contingent on them being significantly lower in Willpower. This means that if someone casts a s50 status ‘mind melt’ technique, someone with TW50 would be able to completely resist the effects with effort. Someone with TW55 would shrug it off fairly easily. It would follow then that someone with TW45 may not be able to resist the effects completely, but neither would they completely succumb to them and become a gibbering mess. If you were at TW40 you’d probably start to be at the point where you’re in a really significant amount of trouble, because you could only resist to a small degree, and then anything below that you’d probably just be completely wiped. While I use static numbers here, this is obviously reliant on responsible roleplay rather than actual values, and arguments as to reasonability and circumstancial modifiers would apply. This inherent defence to genjutsu is outlined as integrated into the willpower stat, which suggests that all genjutsu describe the outcome of someone who has completely succumbed to the effects of that genjutsu, unless someone has taken the time to outline exactly what effects for what variety of resistance.

This is different from both Ninjutsu and Taijutsu in the way that they apply and assess damage. Taijutsu will almost always and Ninjutsu will most often become a Strength vs Strength contest at some point in damage assessment. An example for this is when a Taijutsu user with 50 strength takes a direct hit from a water dragon jutsu with 50 strength. This creates a strength vs strength scenario where the amount of damage that the Taijutsu user takes is dependant on the difference between their strengths. However, even if the Taijutsu user is blocking with their arms, the amount of damage he takes from the direct hit is not 0. . The equal strength scenario does not mean that people with 50 strength are impervious to damage, nor does it mean that their skin is the equivalent of an s50 defensive technique which requires the defence rules to penetrate. Contrast this with the case with Genjutsu, where someone with equal willpower can largely overcome almost the entire effects of a technique, and because genjutsu 'damage' is mental and therefore not quantifiable in a meaningful sense beyond 'some' and 'incapacitory' levels of damage, you can't really rely on stacking up genjutsu 'hits'. This creates situations where you spend a huge chunk of chakra, and you're basically noped because someone has a high number, which is different from Ninjutsu and Taijutsu in that the Strength Stat cannot operate to mitigate all damage or the other effects of damaging attacks (such as burning / stabbing / cutting / shocking etc).

So you see, Genjutsu is significantly weaker than it’s counterparts when it comes to the damage calculation, and that’s before you take into account the ability of taijutsu and ninjutsu to do things like cut/ pierce / burn alongside the blunt force of an X [Strength] hit, because of the ease at which a single stat can mitigate almost all of its damage. If we keep willpower as it is and remove the -5, we allow willpower to be a far more effective defensive statistic than strength is. Genjutsu is relegated to a supporting role for other builds, and is unable to stand up as its own discipline to fight with on par with Taijutsu and Ninjutsu, because it has a stat which every character can invest in to simply negate it. This is why it’s relevant that Genjutsu remains weak to all of the weaknesses of every other form of attack also. Because not only does it have similar requirements to prepare and land as other attacks, it’s inherently able to be resisted simply through the way you invest stat points on your character to a much larger extent than Taijutsu and Ninjutsu due to it’s inability to deal any kind of ‘damage’ other than mental and the way that the willpower’s resistance functions.

If we consider a fight between two heavy Genjutsu specc’d ninja, we come to a point where you both can just ignore each other’s strongest techniques because you both have 50 willpower. The -5 effective willpower creates a key point of counterplay in this situation for one, as it requires a gen spec to devote themselves to taking all of the concentrations in order to fully master the discipline better than others. If we didn’t have that, every gen spec would be useless against another gen spec, and they’d have an extremely boring wet noodle fight for a thread.

What it does for other characters is force upon them an interesting choice. Do you allow yourself to remain slightly weak to Genjutsu (since if you invest in 50 WP and get to operate with 45, you still mitigate a large amount of the damage an s50 will deal), or do you sacrifice some of your offensive capability or versatility to cover a weakness? It creates a situation where you have to choose what you’re strong and weak to, because nobody should be strong against everything. Without that -5, that choice is much reduced, since you can just invest in the stat and Genjutsu becomes relegated to the level of an inconvenience. You don’t need to dodge initiators anymore, you don’t need to kai, you can just sit there and wait for it to be over. You don’t run into this problem with Taijutsu and Ninjutsu, because it doesn’t matter how you build your character, you can’t just walk through max rank attacks and be fine.

Someone brought up low-rank genjutsu, and those are irrelevant to the end-game level discussion as even if you take the -5 willpower, all genjutsu below S-rank are kai’able at 45 willpower. Low-rank genjutsu are not subject to this perceived issue to begin with. The most powerful S-rank techniques are Overlay, which cannot be kai’d as a result of being Overlay techniques which are immune to kai due to happening in the space of a moment. Creative and Subtle illusionary techniques designed to escape detection and rely on deception will always have a place in the system regardless of the methods required to remove or resist them, since a person would require deception or perceptive counterplay to try and detect these types of illusions. But they’re also not the main function of Genjutsu as considered above. Genjutsu should not be relegated to a ‘support’ arm of techniques, and should be capable of being a fighting style in and of itself. You can build a character that uses nothing but Taijutsu or Ninjutsu, and they remain relevant. To say that the main purpose of Genjutsu is to be subtle and sneaky to disguise Tai or Nin attacks is to make Genjutsu lesser than Tai or Nin, which is not the design philosophy that the board operates off of. So for that, all three need to be capable of being their own completely fleshed out fighting styles that do not rely on others to be relevant.

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Genjutsu cannot be countered unless your are a Genjutsu user

Post by Principal » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:26 am

I'm just going to say this, it's quite noticeable that two people here don't have Genjutsu mains lol, this new stat change messed with Chikara as well as he now lacks a true taijutsu stat to use his combat style, lol btw, the mere fact that all Genjutsu users are FORCED to rely on either Taijutsu or Ninjutsu says a lot, because as of now a ninjutsu user could ignore both Genjutsu (not initiations) and Taijutsu techiques and be a beast, and we have plenty of proof of Tai only characters (Imagine them without -5 Will Power on top of that) but we could NEVER have a fully functioning Genjutsu user, who don't use Ninjutsu or Taijutsu to make their Gen viable, it's impossible unless you are relegated to full support.

Edit: BTW, the fact that non Gen spec can even use Warp is somewhat nonsensical IMO as well, but I'll let that slide for now.
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